Caerphilly County Borough Council has agreed to recruit a new interim chief executive on a salary of £142,524. That’s £11,000 more than what the current one is getting.
The controversial decision, taken at a council meeting on Tuesday June 10, has led to fresh clashes between Labour and Plaid Cymru on the issue of senior management pay.
The ruling Labour group welcomed the decision on the pay agreement. The opposition Plaid group heavily criticised the move to advertise the interim post at £11,000 more than what the current acting chief executive Stuart Rosser is getting.
Mr Rosser, who will step down in July, is currently filling the role in place of Anthony O’Sullivan, who, alongside deputy chief executive Nigel Barnett and head of legal Daniel Perkins are suspended on full pay.
Plaid Cymru group leader Colin Mann called for the post to be advertised at £131,000, the salary currently paid to Mr Rosser, but the interim chief executive said this would mean his deputy could be paid more than whoever fills the role.
The job had previously been advertised at £142,000 before Mr Rosser agreed to take on the six-month role in a part-time capacity on a reduced rate.
The salary level now advertised is the same rate which sparked the original scandal over council bosses’ pay.
The Labour group described Plaid’s actions as “shambolic disarray”, claiming the agreed salary will attract the best candidates.
Deputy leader Gerald Jones, went as far as to ask whether Cllr Mann should consider his position as opposition leader.
He said: “It was clear to everyone in the council chamber that Cllr Mann’s proposal to offer an uncompetitive salary rate for our new interim chief executive was a non-starter.
“So much so that even his own Plaid Cymru Group Members were holding their heads as he pressed on with his proposal.
“Two members of Cllr Mann’s own group – including former council leader Lindsay Whittle – abstained from supporting Cllr Mann’s proposal and another nationalist councillor left the chamber before the vote was called.
“It’s clear that not only has Cllr Mann misjudged the needs of our county borough and its residents, but that he’s also losing the support of his own political group.”
Cllr Mann dismissed the claims as “a load of nonsense”. He said: “Gerald should be concentrating on the issues of his own group who are split down the middle quite often.”
On the issue of chief executive pay, Cllr Mann added: “Stuart Rosser, who has acted up as chief executive, was prepared to accept a salary equivalent to £131,000 a year and I fail to see why Labour is quite happy to up the pay of a new interim chief executive.
“I believe the salary at £131,000 a year – far higher than some council chief executives – is sufficient to attract good quality candidates.
“Given the multi-million pound bill for the senior officers’ pay saga, I would have thought Labour would be looking to save some public money. Clearly not.
“What sort of message is this sending to the public who are facing further cuts in services in the coming years?
“The answer seems to be that Labour will look after those at the very top.”
• Anthony O’Sullivan, Nigel Barnett and Daniel Perkins have been charged with misconduct in a public office, and are due to appear before Bristol Crown Court on September 2 to enter a plea.
Well Plaid couldn’t even get the support from their own Councillors just goes to show how disorganised and unstable the Plaid Group are, what a turn off to the electorate. Colin Mann states “Gerald should be concentrating on the issues of his own group who are split down the middle quite often”. Can he answer the question, how many Labour members voted against their own party? Are they really split or is he trying to divert attention off his own party which clearly shows they are a mess in opposition, and they wasn’t much different in power. Whilst I disagree with how the Pay rises were handled, I think the Councillors need to get their act together and hope we get a Chief Executive to continue in Stuart Rossers footsteps who has clearly brought stability to the authority and for me as a Tax Payer, I would want the best person for the job with a sound mind and judgement to take the Council through very difficult times.
They apparently need to pay a ridiculously high salary “to attract the best candidates.”
People like the last incumbents who are awaiting trial perhaps?
I wrote a long time ago that this story will run and run. The council never seems to learn how distateful it is, to voters, to pay council administrators far more than they could dream of earning in a private sector job.
Plaid don’t support their own leader and are in disarray, Labour are out-of-touch in offering ridiculously high salaries – CCBC won’t attract the very best as the job has zero prestige – and all whilst this is happening the taxpayers are left to fund the bill. Awful! Awful! Awful!
You could offer £80,000 and still get a better candidate than by offering £131,000. There are many talented people about, many of whom haven’t yet got the experience but would thrive as CE. The council should lower the salaries saving us money and give chances to the talented unproven (the talented proven just head up the corporate world offering >£750,000).
Anthony O`Sullivan the current, suspended, but `still in service` Caerphilly Council Chief Executive, still has this job, so, how on earth can the council fill a post, in July, that is not vacant?, we still pay his salary and will continue to do so until he is found guilty or not guilty at his public criminal trail next year.
Do Caerphilly County borough Council, and it`s movers and shakers know something we, the paying public do not know about this `trial`?. or do they propose to run concurrent post holders in the job at double the salary?.
This situation needs more explanation than is yet being reported by the Observer, perhaps Colin Mann and the rest of the Council`s opposition Councillors should clarify the above issues before applying their collective minds to the level of the funds to be further wasted on this disgraceful and unacceptable situation, local governance in Caerphilly borough council really does leave a lot to be desired, or, we, the public, need to be told more about what the council`s proposals are for when Stuart Rosser leaves in July.
The Council would get more value for money by paying the current interim Chief Executive, Stuart Rosser, a man of unquestioned integrity, honesty, and professional ability Double his salary to stay, money much better spent in my view.
The general public are fed up with being treated like mushrooms and they are fed up with cllrs being like sheep whether it is plaid or labour. Don’t bleat to the public about having no money when the people on trial are suspended on full pay and the tax payer is footing the bill.
Has Stuart Rosser been a good temporary chief executive since he’s been in the job?
Better the devil you know than the devil you don’t know.
Further to my previous post is it absolutely necessary to fill the position before knowing the outcome of the courts decision. Let’s hope that they have our interests foremost in their minds and not a feeling of self importance while spending large amounts of other peoples money.
Coincidentally the salary for the Chief Executive approved by our Labour council is exactly the same as Prime Minister David Cameron. This figure includes salary due to him as an MP. As well as running the four countries that make up the UK Cameron has constituency business and is in charge of a fractious political party. Additionally he is First Lord of the Treasury and Minister for the Civil Service.
Perhaps it is the intention of the Labour group to recruit Mr. Cameron, who may feel that he deserves a rest but likes the salary he earns now. Given the workload outlined above I would think he could manage a little Welsh council by travelling down from Oxfordshire about one day a week. The rest of the week he could shoot grouse and play golf, or whatever he does as hobbies now. An easier life for the Prime Minister and at the same pay. There really could be something in this, the council could proudly say that they have picked the very best available, a man with a track record of running the whole of the UK for the last four years, attracted by the brilliant decision of offering him the same salary as he is used to.
Colin Mann should consider whether he would take a post where the rest of his team is paid more than him in the longer term. In the unlikely event that Plaid win an election I’ll remind him off his logic and ask him to get paid less than his cabinet.
Stuart Rosser came back in his old salary, he was offered what was agreed last night and turned it down. That’s a sign of good character and somebody who cared for Caerphilly.
I’ve worked in 4 local authorities, they all muddle along doing the best they can. A local authority can have over 1500 lines of business, that’s mind boggling and complex. Yet you go to the private sector and you get the same amount of money that a chief exec can receive in public sector, just for running something that has 1 or 2 lines of business in one department, not at the top.
Cllr Richard Williams with the Prime minister argument, that old chestnut, yes that’s the salary and it’s on par with a chief executive. However prime ministers go on to write a book, sit on the board of a big corporation and earn millions as a result. John Major earned £18 million and Tony Blair is making a fortune! In America the president only earns less than a million yet when Bill Clinton left the White House he’s earned over £500 million in just lucrative guest speaking. You haven’t got a valid argument.
We live in a market led environment, the market rate for a chief executive is set and Caerphilly recruits at the basic. In some local authorities they pay more and when William’s is put through and 22 chief executives become at least 9 (TCB) they are probably going to demand more for running bigger authorities.
I am sure that Allan Rees has no experience whatsoever of working in the private sector. I am also sure, by his comment “in the unlikely event that Plaid win an election” that he is one of the complacent Labour councillors that assume that people will, sheep like, vote for them. We shall see!
The job of council Chief Executive is not comparable to the private sector. In industry the chief and his board make strategic decisions for which they are accountable, the final arbitor is the market which can destroy their company completely. The council is a publicly funded body where the Councillors decide policy, budgets and future strategy. The political gang in charge can make a complete hash of things and the chief executive serenely continues in post and is paid (not earns) his Prime Ministerial salary.
When people who live in the unreal world of the public sector make comments like “the market rate for a chief executive is set” and “Caerphilly recruits at the basic” it just reinforces my tongue in cheek comment in this newspaper. Come election time I look forward to a good clean out of the dross whose wages the hard working people of Caerffili are paying.
The point has already been made by Trefor Bond, but maybe Cllr. Allan Rees can answer, what is going to happen if Anthony O’Sullivan is found innocent of the charges against him? We will then have two chief executves, both on a comparable salary to the Prime Minister.Which one continues in the job?
Obviously not, as the new post is temporary for a year.
Now to your previous reply, I am old enough to have worked for 18 years of my life. 8 of them have been in the private sector, 6 in the voluntary sector and the rest as a student where in my late 20’s I held down a job and raised two children as well as getting a degree.
During that time I learned not to make sweeping statements that have been made up on personal opinion or to make political gain. Chief Executives or directors have overall responsibility for policy implementation. They are professionally trained and qualified. They are there to help councilors make decisions – specialist, professional, technical, legal, financial, managerial and then to implement the decisions.
Now back to the “real world” of fact, any academic who lectures in local government will point out that there’s been a steady turn from local authorities being the provider of services to a commissioner of services. That means that a market exists to provide and compete over those services if council cant provide it internally. Senior officers need to be professionals, solicitors, accountants, architects, planners, engineers, housing managers, educational administrators, social workers and so on. Many affiliated to professional bodies which regulate them. To do their jobs they need complex technical knowledge and that is at a premium. So to attract a good caliber of senior officer you have to match what they would get for similar levels of expertise in any other industry or sector – private or public hence competing on salary amount and influenced by a market. Councillor Mann should have known this as I understand his background was in finance, yet he still called for a smaller salary, therefore i wouldn’t trust him with my penny jar let alone a local authority.
So I’m firmly in the real world, I not naive enough to call the electorate sheep either. It borderlines on illusory superiority over the electorate who actually stop and think who they vote for. So if I’m ever going to campaign in your area, I’ll be sure to point out that Councillor Richard Williams knows better and thinks you are all sheep. Hows that for tongue in cheek?
Allan if you had troubled to read my coments you will see that I have not called the electorate “sheep”, they are not. What I wrote was
“he is one of the complacent Labour councillors that assume that people will, sheep like, vote for them. We shall see!”
I wrote this because you assume that Plaid Cymru is not going to win more council seats than Labour. I am not sure about that at all, there may be a lot about the Labour administration that is going to be revealed in court next year and Plaid may get their act together. UKIP will also be a force with unpredictable effect on the result.
Bully for you working and getting a degree, I have one too along with a host of technical, managerial and safety qualifications. All gained when I was working in manufacturing industry. You of all people, then, should be able to see that paying more than £142,000, plus pension provison, is way over the top for the actual responsibilities entailed in the role.
I hope you do campaign in my area and try to explain to the voters why it is that Caerffili council needs an administrator that is paid the same as the Prime Minister. This should get me a lot of votes as people do know what I stand for; getting the best value for money services for them, regardless of their political inclinations.
I got a degree as well alan but far too often in the council people have got high paying jobs because they are related to councillors and this has happened for decades and this needs to stop. Genuinely talented people (with or without degree) have seen people catapulted into jobs earning massive money who should never be in such high positions and just because they are related to councillors it’s a disgrace.
Have you ever considered the rebutting arguments?
If his team members were being paid more than him, why not cut the pay of team members and pay them all less? Or is that too difficult? Legally it’s easy to do, politically not so much.
Your second one…”Senior officers need to be professionals, solicitors, accountants, architects, planners, engineers, housing managers, educational administrators, social workers and so on.”
You are aware that the average salary for all of those professions is around £50 – 70,000? You are giving a professional a 102% pay rise. Basic economics tells you such a high salary isn’t a naturally reached equilibrium based on the market. The person in charge of British Airways at Heathrow Airport is on £95,000. This is probably the most comparable level to the private sector. The average salary for a Vice-President at Barclay’s bank is £110,000. For a company with similar turnover and employees to CCBC the average is £100,000. (Use Glassdoor.co.uk to check my figures) CBBC will be the highest payer for a CEO in Wales and the largest in terms of per capita when you consider people living in the borough. Do you honestly think this is right?
Even then, the people interviewing and appointing this professional you speak of isn’t going to be as qualified (if s/he was then promote and not recruit) so you have a less-qualified person appointing a more-qualified person. They won’t know what’s best.
You, as a taxpayer, are being ripped off but have become so self-indulged in the world of local politics that you’ve become delusional and can’t see it. It’s quite sad really. You’re naive to genuinely believe this salary is what’s best for CCBC and, indirectly, what’s best for us, the taxpayers! Out of 7 people to have commented on this article, 6 disagree with such a high salary. Are we all wrong?
Spot on Dean! I laugh my head off when I manage to ruffle the feathers of party political people. I have worked closely with at least a dozen managers who would think nothing of being Chief Executive of the council, apart from the massive pay rise they would receive. Of course they would be quite pleased with that.
In Allans’ world we are all wrong, how can folk like us comprehend the complexity of running a minor council? Leave it to the experts like Allan who have worked in the private sector for eight years.
Apart from the hilarity engendered by this subject the sobering fact is that CCBC has been paying three senior officers massive salaries for more than a year without getting a single hours work from them. The solution is, apparently, to raise the salary and recruit someone as a caretaker.
Perhaps I am too stupid to understand the wisdom of this course of action. If so I am in good company, the voters of Caerffili. I await Allan’s further accusation that I consider all voters to be stupid!
I put a comment on here and it didn’t post, However I said I was bowing out of the argument as I have work to get on with.
Richard sits there imagining I have ruffled feathers.He then makes and attack on character and he’s claiming it my feathers are ruffled?
The comment that didn’t post was my problem was the bulky middle management structure in local authorities, Micro-managers. Shame that didn’t go up. Ive worked in 4 of them and I can’t speak for Caerphilly as Ive never worked there.
Dean you’re obviously angry, I’m sorry if you are. I’ve checked the figures on the website you suggested, Sport England, Legal Services, NICE the list was pretty extensive all had salaries above the Caerphilly Chief Executive and the rest of Wales. Don’t forget Plaid has local authorities who pay that too. Also not that I’m wanting to put down your argument, as it has valid points, however I think the professional salaries you quoted were starting to middle ones. Plus the other salaries (i.e Barclays) you missed out bonuses, which exceeded £200,000 that didn’t include stock and shares dividends, which make up a big part of that income. I would assume that could mount up to huge amounts. The dodgy thing about everything else that the person receives apart from what appears to be a low salary has lower tax banding and they are not national insurance deductible. Then their take home is far greater and less transparent. Plus in Tesco the shares you get at that level and bonuses is also pretty high. So I don’t think the arguments balanced.
However, I see the sentiment, I understand there a link between wages and income and the gap in the wealthy and the poor. I’m not self-indulged by politics, again I can see you’re angry. There’s Williams recommendations to come, Wales doesn’t need 22 local authorities, I’ll support that, it doesnt need 22 chief executives, with 66 at least senior officers and god knows how many heads of service and then service managers. Makes me sick to work out how much that costs the tax payer. Not my words but there’s a pyramid structure and it needs leveling out! There’s the workforce on the ground capable of doing a job without top heavy management structure. I loath managerialism, I have moaned about it in every seminar and training event I’ve attended. Hopefully if the 22 authorities dig in, the Welsh Government will legislate for it and it will have to happen.
Thats all I have to comment now and thanks for the debate.
I’m not angry, I’m frustrated.
You’re right about the bonuses but that forms the second point. The bonuses will take such jobs over the £200,000 mark so CCBC will be dwarfed by the large companies paying lots and lots. Pluses the additional shares and you have a floor of the talented moving to the private sector.
It’s simply impossible to keep up. Therefore, the comparable level will middle to low level management in the private sector where they don’t have shares given (the BA job, Tesco store management, low level Vice-Presidents etc… Whose pay is still around £100,000 – £20,000.’
CCBC have created a category of their own. They’re in between with no comparable level in the real world. You could pay £22,000 less and still be at the top end of middle management where shares and large bonuses are not given. The only rational explanation you have given is the deputies being paid more, in which case cut their pay also. It’s not difficult! You can still attract the ‘best’ whilst saving over £100,000 a year by the time you’ve cut all of their pay. Surely this is the better option?
“Sport England, Legal Services and NICE pay more.” – I’m not going to insult your intelligence by telling you they’re not comparable due to the scale and turnover and complexity of their work.
This is the heart of the problem; there is a salary escalator in local government ‘top jobs.’ I have written before now about this, senior officers will petition their councillors and point out that a neighbouring council pays more. They get a rise and the neighbour council’s officers, in turn, point out that their previous differential has been eroded and an urgent rise is required.
My point, which has wide support, is that none of this is a real market. Wages in the wider world, outside local government are dependent on market forces such as company profits and the demand for and supply of labour with the necessary skills.
I fully agree with your argument “You can still attract the ‘best’ whilst saving over £100,000 a year by the time you’ve cut all of their pay.” An argument which you have backed up with examples. It is a pity that Labour cannot see this, though I do know that several of their councillors are not happy with the Chief exec salary being offered, I have spoken with two of these dissenters this week.
Allan, I for one am not ` angry` I am not `frustrated`and I am not particularly engrossed in this story, but, I am a ratepayer in the borough, and I can see that the Caerphilly council intend to double the expense of appointing a person, to a post, which is already filled, they intend to do so even in light of severe financial constraints on the public purse, and that is perverse. Ratepayers up and down the valleys will remember this, together with other events which involve misfeance of public money and misconduct by officers to whom the council continues to pay huge salaries for doing nothing in return, except of course to attend meetings with highly paid lawyers to defend themselves from you and your colleagues actions against them.
Please, Please explain and justify, why the Caerphilly council feel they have to pay out over £280,000, for one person to conduct the business of governance of this authority?. It `appears` to be yet another example of bad, poor, or negligent decisions of this Council for which the ratepayers of the borough will again have to pick up the tab, and whilst you are applying your political mind to the above questions, perhaps you can address the issue of when, at what stage, will the Auditor General for Wales give consideration to surcharging someone or other for these instances of gross mismanagement.?
Caerphilly Council interim chief executive on the same salary as the prime minister – they are having a laugh at the taxpayers expense, and your great leader Miliband says there is a cost of living crisis, not in Caerphilly Council Towers there isn’t…..but there is no money for the cycle race or proms in the park, and many Caerphilly residents are using food banks and living in poverty, utterly disgusting, and you people of Caerphilly voted this lot of charlatans in.
I asked a simple question two days ago, has Mr Rosser been effective as temporary chief executive officer? If the answer is yes there is no problem so let’s wait until the verdict of the courts and go from there.
Meanwhile carry on with your squabbling which as far as I can see is just the usual “yeah but what about” style of political debate.
In answer to your question, this is my personal view, Mr. Rosser has a reputation as a man of integrity and ability. I have met him at election times and he has always been approachable, courteous and helpful. This is both toward me and other candidates.
I would have no problem with him continuing in the role but he may not wish to. He resigned shortly after the last election, I have not heard of any particular reason, before coming back as a ‘caretaker’ whilst his replacement is awaiting trial. He may feel that he has fulfilled the job he was brought in to do and is now ready to leave the employ of the council.
Thank you for a straight answer.
Let,s hope he will continue in the job until the courts decision then it will be up to the council to do the right thing on behalf of the people of Caerphilly.
I’ve reread the article and am still in disarray. I have one big question though…
Who on Earth votes for these senseless nutcases living in the self-indulgent world of local politics who approves such a salary?
Partly I think it is habit, the ‘I always vote for XYZ party’ and also the secretive way in which these rises have been handled in the past. The original rises were voted through by a special remuneration committee made up from Labour and Plaid councillors. Most other councillors knew nothing about it until the whole sorry business was leaked. The cat is well and truly out of the bag now.
I have not spoken, nor corresponded, with a single person who thinks the pay structure for senior officers is sensible, barring our friend Cllr. Allan Rees of course. I will give him credit for trying to publicly defend what his party has done, most of his colleagues have kept their heads down. I have now spoken to three Labour borough councillors who are not happy with this.
It’s clear that Stuart Rosser doesn’t want to continue (which would obviously have been the best and most economic thing that could have happened). I doubt that the Council will be able to fill the CEO position externally (even after employing costly external consultants) so it’s probable that there will be another round of internal promotions. Basically Stuart Rosser has proved that he can hold down the 2 most senior executive jobs in the Council on a part-time basis on his own! ! Councillors please note. Depending on what happens early 2015, there must be room for economies at the top.
It’s a shame though. I would do the job for £65k. Richard Williams could share the job for another £65k. Two brains for the price of one. Now that is good value. It delivers a £12k saving too! It wouldn’t even need to be a full time job. I’m good. The council don’t look at all angles though.
I have a feeling lots of current councillors will lose out to UKIP. The pools released today reveal UKIP are on course for around 5 – 10 AM’s.
I agree Dean. lack of thinking outside the box ! (Or the 6-yard area!). How about 2 (or 3) Councils sharing a CEO? now you’re talking value.
This argument over pay is a convenient smokescreen for the Labour Group to ignore their responsibilities as employers. The 3 execs currently suspended should be pit through the disciplinary process as their actions have already been highlighted by the Audit Officer as “out of expected procedure”. This is fact, whatever the outcome of whether the payments were illegal or not doesn’t detract from the process used. This in turn would also identify the current councillors who were part of that process and who should also be reprimanded or ousted.
see the comments under this article this person is not held in the best regard in torfaen cbc either, I wonder why?:
southwalesargus.co.uk/news/11277927.Council_leader_among_Queen___s_birthday_honours/
I would be interested if Allan Rees could explain his comment made below (7 days ago) – ‘Don’t forget Plaid has local authorities who pay that too’. There are two Plaid councils and my information is that their Chief Executives get near to £100,000, not the £142,000 Labour want to pay in Caerphilly. Is this the usual Labour tactic of trying to take blame away from themselves or did Allan Rees just get this wrong? Either way I think he should apologise to your readers.